This interview was conducted on Friday, September 6, 2024, on RadioChad (estimated duration of the third part: 35 minutes).
Rad Like: Good evening everyone. I’d like to start by asking if there will be an in-game marketplace, to get a feel for the level of integration with the Uniqs in the game itself. Will players be able to buy, sell, and trade their cosmetics directly in the game, or will they have to leave the game and do it in Ultra or on other marketplaces?
Adrien: Good evening. Yes, there will be a marketplace inside the game. I won’t go into details about the features yet, as we’re still figuring out how we want them to work between Empires and Citadels, because it’s on the marketplace where there will be the most interaction between players of Empires and Citadels. In addition to some other, more gamified interactions, where Web3 players will be able to give missions, etc. So, yes, there will be a marketplace. I won’t go into too much detail about its integration or how it works. I’ll stop there before I say too much and take away David’s opportunity to explain what comes next!
Rad Like: No problem. But you’ve already answered the question, which is great. And in terms of graphics, what we saw during the demos was pretty cool, honestly, even pretty good. It just lacked a couple of things to make the game feel perfectly up to the level of current productions, like bullet impacts on walls, etc. Are you still working on that kind of stuff, or graphically, are you where you want to be, and you’re just in an optimization phase where you just want the game to run perfectly well on as many machines as possible?
Adrien: There are details to refine, there always are more or less. In terms of current integration, we’re already at a level where, for example, bullet impacts, compared to what’s done in other games, we’re already at the level of a Ghost Recon, a The Division, Rainbow Six Siege. Bullet impacts are perfectly integrated into the game and are visible in some videos. If they weren’t on the live AMA, it’s maybe because Discord’s compression wasn’t good enough. But bullet impacts are already integrated. A large part of our work right now is refining some environments, some lighting, and doing a lot of optimization. Even in triple A, quality varies, it’s not something that’s absolutely established. But for us, above all, the goal is for the game to run on as many machines as possible. And for now, we haven’t reached that goal yet.
Rad Like: Okay. For me, bullet impacts were definitely missing during the demo. But it’s cool to know they’re in there, because I think it adds a lot of realism. And it would have been a shame if it wasn’t in your roadmap. But okay!
In terms of marketing and partnerships with different entities, there were questions about a publisher who was supposed to sign. Can you confirm that this is now done, and that this publisher will play a role in marketing the game? We were talking earlier about how to market the game to Web2 players. For me, there’s no problem doing that with traditional players, without having to notify them that it’s blockchain behind it. Assuming that we will use traditional channels to reach these players, online gaming press, as you said, maybe influencers, etc. And I imagine that having a publisher with you can bring a lot of firepower. Can you go into a little more detail about whether those are your plans?
Adrien: For the publisher itself, I won’t go into details. But what I can say is that there are things that are underway. Now, well… working with certain people is like having a third job: managing a video game studio, and then managing the legal stuff for the negotiations with the publisher.
Chad: If one of these publishers is behind you with a gun, blink your eye, please!
Adrien: (laughs) I’ll let you guess if I blinked!
Chad: I’m really tempted to go down that road, because it’s a question I wanted to ask you, maybe it will allow us to go further. There are names, logos, on the announcements, notably Ubisoft and Intel. Can you tell us the nature of the partnerships you have with Ubisoft and Intel?
Adrien: Not in detail for now, but what I can reveal is that they are partners who, so far, have been extremely supportive, who have helped us a lot.
Chad: But if you put the logo, it means there’s at least something public about it, right? They are the ones who are involved, so somewhere, there’s something public.
Adrien: I’ll leave that to your own interpretation of the situation.
Chad: Yeah, I could interpret it, but it wouldn’t necessarily be positive. You can put a logo, and then, actually, nothing happens specifically behind it. For example, it could be just one person, an acquaintance, who works, or someone on the team who worked at Ubisoft before. That happens a lot in Web3…
Adrien: The only thing I’ll reveal if we go down that road, because I don’t want to leave it in that kind of interpretation – but well played for pushing me into that corner! – is that neither Ubisoft nor Intel let you use their logo, just because there’s a former Ubisoft employee at your place, or because they have a friend at Ubisoft, or at Intel. They’re not entities that work that way. Everything is controlled.
Chad: Okay. We’ll see how the story goes.
Adrien: Anyway, we have things, but we’re not ready to reveal them yet. Not just because we don’t want to, or to hype everyone up, but also because there are partnerships, discussions where we know it’s 80 or 90% done. We need to define exactly what it looks like, how we want to do it, why, what form it takes, before we can announce these partnerships in an optimal way for communication.
Ben2zeji: Okay. I’ll allow myself, because obviously, Adrien is under an NDA, but I’m not bound by that. I’m only going to use public information. We know very well, for example, that at Ubisoft, Nicolas Gilot and Nicolas Pouard, who is in charge of developing the Web3 blockchain part of Ubisoft, are in collusion. It’s common knowledge that there are necessarily links behind it between Black Ice Studios, Ultra, and Ubisoft. The nature of these links has not been established, but we can position ourselves. As Adrien said, they have been a strong supporter. All the internal development of 20 people working on a video game, that requires funding. Ultra… we all know the history of Ultra’s token. We can imagine things, we can imagine how it’s unfolding, behind the scenes. But once again, these are just assumptions, and that’s what we see through the prism of the general public. But there you go. It was good, just to clarify, and also to get Adrien out of trouble!
Chad: The thing is, when you have a partnership, well, when you put a company’s logo, you associate a company, like Ubisoft or Intel, it’s usually because there’s something concrete, public, involved.
Adrien: The extent of what’s public is that there was the logo, the presence of Ubisoft and Intel, as partners and supporters of our live premiere. Then, the extent of our conversations, of a potential partnership, is something I’m not at liberty to disclose, for now.
Chad: Okay. We’ll be following that closely, because it’s intriguing. It makes you want to know if Ubisoft is involved. For them, it seems pretty clear since they’re a game company, for Intel, it’s more complicated, because it’s… we don’t really see what the nature of the partnership could be.
Adrien: What I can reveal frankly and honestly, because it’s a way for me to thank them, is that Intel has provided us with hardware in recent months. At some point, you have an animator whose machine dies, you ask Intel, and then they send you what you need for your animator. They’ve given us a lot of support, even outside of an official partnership. To be completely clear, official partnership or not, to support a video game developer they believe in. They also have access to our game, of course. That’s kind of how the industry works, we get some help, whether it’s part of an official partnership or not. There are always multiple facets to your potential partners, or not.
Chad: Okay. Well, we’re not going to spend half an hour on this, but anyway, thank you for what little you could say on the subject. That’s something at least!
Chad: In the comments, there are a lot of people who want details about the game. “With your past in the army, I imagine the game, although intended to be casual, will have a great tactical aspect possible. And that the Citadel was designed to have multiple tactics, by the players. Was the game designed for that?”
Adrien: Yes. At its heart, the game was a tactical, accessible game. So it’s not Squad, it’s not Tarkov, where the controls are really very slow, very sluggish, which isn’t really a good representation of reality, because when you get shot at, you don’t take half an hour to get on your belly. So that’s represented. Now, players have the ability to adapt their progression speed, their level of aggression, depending on how you want to play it. Based on their tactics, to progress through the Citadel.
Chad: I haven’t been in the army, and I have an image of the terrain as something quite frightening. What gave me the closest sensation to that was Apex, because the threat can come from anywhere, at any time. And I loved that game, but it was also the one that gave me the most stress out of all the FPSs I’ve played. For that matter, the setup you told me about, for Citadels, is kind of the same. 12 teams of three, I think. Is that the reason why you chose this configuration, is it because it’s a little bit like real conditions, or not at all, and it’s just because you like the format?
Adrien: No, one of the reasons for the Citadel’s configuration was to go for something a little more close-quarters combat. Because it’s true that in a lot of games today, it’s always open world, large expanses, large terrains, etc., where you don’t really have control of the situation. I, what I wanted to try to give the players… you never have complete control of the situation, of course, but it was to try to give them the ability to control the outcome of their situation. Let’s say you don’t have a precision shot at 1 km, that puts a bullet in your head, and then your raid is over, because you never saw it. You don’t even know where he was or if he was cheating. Things like that. The goal was to do close-quarters combat, because ultimately, close-quarters combat, even in reality, is where you have the most control. You can control your angles, your positioning, your legs, you can control everything to give yourself the best chance of survival. And that’s the goal of the Citadel. It’s for players to learn how to navigate it, and to learn how to control their chances of survival. Now, it doesn’t mean that you can’t be taken by surprise. You can have a guy above you, hiding on a balcony, etc. But with the right tactics, with the right team, these are things you can handle.
Chad: Yeah, it’s actually interesting. It’s also the type of environment I prefer when it’s more in corridors, with things where you can hide. Ultraderikap says, “My question is what’s planned for Web2 players, in terms of marketing, for example, sites like Jeuxvideo.com, IGN, is that planned?”
Adrien: Yes, it’s planned.
Chad: Okay. Godgiven says, “I think the most interesting thing is really the comparison with the CS Dota skin system. It’s clearly proof that they understood what needed to be monetized, and where the risk was.” So, that wasn’t a question, but a comment.
Chad: And JBM’s question: “Can we learn more about the production aspect of cosmetics, stuff, it’s pretty opaque… How does it work?”
Adrien: Yes, we have a creator site – by the way, there are already people who have submitted some content – that we will be opening gradually, and where there will be more and more content that is likely to be accepted. The site is explicit enough in that all the specifications necessary for content production are already mentioned. For example, if someone wants to submit a skin for a weapon, all the specifications are detailed and their skin will not be accepted until they are met. That’s for the technical side of things.
In principle, there will be solo creators who will have the opportunity to submit their creations, and there will be “brand creators” who will be hired by brands to have branding inside the game.
And then, I’m going to reveal a little something: in the coming weeks, we’re going to start opening up the opportunity for certain corporations to submit their applications to become beta creators. That means that through a presentation, a suggestion of why they are creators who can be selected by Black Eye, we will review it, and then choose a few corporations to authorize them to have a slightly faster acceptance process. I’m not giving a specific timeline, but it’s something that will happen pretty quickly. I need to discuss it with David too.
Chad: Okay. Thank you very much. Ben, if you want to ask a question, go ahead.
Ben2zeji: Yes. I’m going to come back to the competitive part. There are 12 teams of three players who will be competing. And I’m going to ask my question under the aegis of my responsibility for the esports part at UltraTimes: how do you see esports within the Citadel? An extraction system that’s not pure PvP, but a system where you compete until there’s only one team left that gets to come out. How do you see the competitive esports aspect, and how much can it catch on? You mentioned the Ultra Arena earlier, and so the Arena league system that is being put in place through Magicalcraft. How do you perceive esports through Citadels?
Adrien: We have a ranking and competition system that’s quite unique for AoM, which, as far as I know, has never been done before. To start, there’s no notion of “last team”. It’s not a Battle Royale, it’s really an extraction game. And even if the last extraction is at the top of the Citadel, there are several extraction possibilities throughout the players’ ascent. That being said, the extraction that is taken partially determines the points that are earned for the ranking, on the competitive side.
Other things have been taken into account in terms of extracting early or not. The higher the players climb the Citadel, the later they extract, and the more interest there will be for them, of course. We made sure of that. Moreover, what determines the players’ progression in the ranking is the value of the stuff they have in their stash. So, the more stuff you have, and the rarer that stuff is, the more points you’ll have and the higher you’ll climb in the ranking. That’s the basic system. I’m not going to elaborate on that because we have things we want to keep under wraps a little, and because we don’t want to reveal everything to our competitors either! But we have some pretty unique systems that will make the game particularly competitive. And that will push…
Ben2zeji: Very good. I understand that there’s necessarily a strategic, tactical side to put in place in terms of extraction. Does, in terms of a show, live streaming, is there a system that’s been thought of as an American show, like: suspense, what team will come out first? Have you thought about this type of show?
Adrien: There are things we’ve discussed internally. Nothing has been developed specifically on that side… There’s a spectating system, but we haven’t specifically put resources into developing a system for watching matches. It’s something we have in our backlog, but it’s not something we’ve pushed.
Chad: Do you have a free camera, for example?
Adrien: No, for now, there’s no free camera. Right now, the best way to watch the game, it’s not through a streamer, so it’s in first person. Which remains the best way to perceive the game, because it’s the best way to perceive the pressure a player can have playing the game.
Besides that, with the question you’re asking me, it makes me bounce back to what Chad was saying about the perception of survival or the fact that Apex put a lot of pressure on. One of the reasons why it’s the kind of game that’s fun to watch is because it’s a game where players don’t want to die. And players don’t want to die in the game, because if they die, they lose their stuff. It’s rare in a game to be as close as that to the notion of having a virtual life where you don’t want to die because you want to keep your stuff.
And that makes it completely change the battles, in the same way that it does in reality. Players start thinking, wondering if they really want to fight. On a Call of Duty, if two teams meet, they’re going to fight, it’s not even a question. In AoM, if two teams meet, maybe one of them will say, “We don’t feel good, we’re not in a good position, so we’re going to fall back, move elsewhere, and maybe we’ll find them later. We’re just going to try to survive a little longer, that’s all.”
And that gives completely different fights. And that gives the game the possibility of being watched and perceived in a completely different way as well. Because we see players having reactions they don’t usually have in a game like Counter-Strike.
Chad: Yeah, well, it’s very relevant! I don’t know if there are any other questions?
I saw that Phantom7 was asking if in Citadels, you’ll be able to create your own clan. Yes, I talked about it a little earlier, so it’s not a big revelation. But the clans in AoM are called syndicates. So players will be able to create their own syndicates, and that brings some benefits, including, of course, having your own emblem. There are also other benefits to syndicates.
Okay. I had a question to close this interview: can you tell us what the release schedule looks like? Is there a release date? I imagine not, but I’m asking anyway! And if there isn’t, is there a timeframe you could give regarding the game’s release? When will we be able to play the full game, or an advanced beta of Citadels, and possibly for Empires?
Adrien: There is a release date that has been set, which is only communicated internally for now… and it’s not that far off. I’ll leave that to your own interpretation. I can already tell you that it won’t be tomorrow, but soon. We’re starting to feel ready with the experience we have right now. So, we have a release date that we want to meet. And then, between now and that release date, access to the alpha, to the beta, and then to certain phases of the game will be done based on what we think the state of the game and our level of progress are. There are things where we feel that if it’s not quite ready yet, it’s not a big deal for the player. And then, there are things that we want to make sure, when players enter the game, that they work absolutely well, 100%. Once we’re there, we’ll start opening the doors to the game. And that’s very soon.
Chad: Okay. I think we can leave it there for tonight, and I suggest we do another show, even with David Hanson, if he’s up for it, but he told me we would do one in January. He said that for the release of AOM, we’ll do a show, so…
Adrien: There will be things to tell you about Empires. He kindly took care of it for me, he worked a lot on the Empires side with our developers, and other people. And then, I think he’s getting to a point where we’re going to want to reveal a bit more about what that experience looks like.
Chad: I would have liked to ask you questions about that, but I don’t know how much you know about that part. Because I know there’s a whole terrain system. Could you maybe…
Adrien: I’m aware of Empires! The reason why, for now, we’re not talking about it too much, is that Empires has a certain economic aspect. I want to avoid making announcements before we eventually change our minds and say, “Well, actually, we’re going to do this instead.” So, I prefer to avoid announcing anything until we’re 100% sure how the economy will work. Because once I’ve said something, players take it, amplify it a thousand times, and if it doesn’t happen, it generates disappointment. So, I want to make sure that when we announce something, it’s because we’re completely certain about it. Empires is still pretty well ready now, but there are still a few aspects to finalize, where we need to get aligned. And at that point, I think we’ll be more confident about the revelations we can make. Before that…
Chad: Actually, it’s the part that’s maybe the least interesting, the least essential. Because, in my opinion, the most essential part of this project is still the game. And actually, everything I’ve heard tonight is excellent in terms of concepts and ideas. The game looks excellent. The only thing that raised some concerns in the community, and in me too, is the possibility that it will be a… how do you say… like a kind of bait (?) for Empires. And so, it’s sure that if there’s a campaign that’s all about Empires first, and the game is left aside, then pushed back, etc., it’s going to be a bunch of red flags. But if the thing is respected, meaning that there’s a priority put on the game, and Empires comes after, that would really be the perfect thing that everyone’s waiting for. It’s really the AAA game, that proves itself as a AAA game, and on top of that, there’s a Web3 experience. That would really be paradise.
Adrien: I think saying that Empires is non-essential is a short sell in the sense that it all depends on who it is for, in reality. Of course, for a video game developer, and for a player, the essential experience will be the game. But for someone who wants to monetize their playing time, the essential experience will be Empires. For people who don’t have time to play at all but love video games and want to use this way to generate income, it could be Empires. So, I would say that it’s really a question of perception and alignment of expectations based on the style and player profile.
Now, I understand what you’re saying, and I agree with you. But I simply want to be clear about the fact that Empires, in itself, is a whole experience with its own atmosphere. And it will have a certain interest with a monetization opportunity that, I think, has never existed before in Web3. Because it’s never been taken seriously.
Chad: Yes, but that’s definitely a cool thing. But still!
Adrien: You see, we agree, and as soon as we started the first conversations with Ultra, we agreed that the important thing was the game, not the Web3 side. It’s the last revelation I’m going to make, and good if it reassures people: we only started developing the Web3 side recently. We had a general idea of what we wanted to do, we knew how we wanted to take it, blockchain was present, etc., so all of that was done. But for two years, our focus was 99% on developing a video game for players. And we’re lucky to be working with Ultra, because it’s also their vision, it’s that what matters is having a video game that players will play. And we were lucky to have a partner who let us do what we know is best for players. Who gave us the time to do things qualitatively. Who gave us the time to develop what has become Ashes of Mankind, Citadels.
